If you haven't read the controversial article by Michael Gungor that everyone is sounding off about, here is the link...
http://gungormusic.com/#!/2011/11/zombies-wine-and-christian-music/#disqus_thread
I may be opening Pandora's box here, but this blog seems to be a little bit misguided in regards to the issue of alcohol. The Bible is quite clear on drunkenness ( Proverbs 23:31-32, Proverbs 20:1, Isaiah 5:11, 22, 1 Peter 4:3, Ephesians 5:18 ), but not so clear on "buzzed" drinking or "social" drinking. But the 2 issues I have are much bigger than this.
ONE...why are we encouraging people to drink alcohol? For some, 1 or 2 drinks gets them drunk. For some, 1 or 2 drinks is a slippery slope that leads to abuse of themselves and/or the people close to them. If we are to "glorify God in all that we do," I just struggle to see how drinking a beer at a bar pushes someone closer to God. If anything I would say it would confuse the unbeliever. We are to be "IN the world but not OF it"...we do not need to be as much like the world as possible in order to rope them into the kingdom of God!
TWO...say 1 or 2 drinks doesn't get someone drunk, just "buzzed"...why are we encouraging people to flirt with the edge of sin? Why dance on the edge of a cliff? What if we applied this principle to the issue of sex before marriage, another issue the Bible is quite clear on. Would we encourage soon-to-be-married couples to engage in sexual promiscuity that is not actual sex? No, that would simply be ill-advised. If a particular issue is not black and white, why not just avoid it all together! Being a leader in ministry is even more reason to be on the safe side, to set the tone for those around us.
Also, Gungor mentions a comparison with eating and gluttony. The main difference here is that eating is a necessity for sustaining human life. Alcohol has little or no value in the human body. If anything it dehydrates many internal systems. I am not condemning Gungor, or even mad or angry at him, I just believe there needs to be a higher standard, especially for those in ministry leading the church.
Well Paul did instruct Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach and Jesus did drink wine. We also know that Christian figures such as Calvin, Luther, and Lewis drank alcohol, beer even. And we also know today through science that wine has a positive effect on the heart.
ReplyDeleteThe higher standard you referred to should reflect revelation of Scriptures, which you admit are unclear about buzzed or social drinking. Do you mean a higher standard that is not written down nor followed by Jesus or Paul or even by Luther or Calvin? That sounds an awful lot like a man-made standard, which is not good.
And I like what he pointed out, abstinence from alcohol is an American Christian idea. idea, not a Biblical one. The Biblical mindset is moderation and Proverbs 23 does in fact link drunkenness and gluttony together like Gungor does.
And ultimately, he wasn't encouraging people to drink. He was encouraging people to not be fake by drinking in some settings but not other settings. People feeling as though they need to alter their behavior BEFORE meeting with Christians leads to superficiality and is a barrier to true, heart change.
I do not drink but that does not mean that I think I'm adhering to a higher standard. It is a personal preference (for now) and the more important higher standard is what is listed in the Bible. There are enough standards in there to live by to last a lifetime and if an individual is able to adhere to these standards, their life will proclaim the Gospel regardless of whether they drink alcohol or not.
And if we claim that abstinence is the only way, we make a claim that the Bible does not make and in doing so, insult the Holy Spirit. The implication is alcohol can even make Spirit-filled believers become out of control, which means that alcohol is a stronger force than the Holy Spirit and it's sanctifying power.
ReplyDeleteGreat thoughts Dustin.
ReplyDeleteIn response to SKnapp, most of your view seems to be trying to blur any lines of absolute truth and that is the scariest compromise of all. And did you really site Luther and Calvin in order to say we should avoid "Man-made standards". I agree with you but it is a pretty poor decision to site 2 MEN as your support.
Anyway, moving on there are 2 quick major flaws with the commonly used arguments on this topic.
1. Wine in the Bible and Wine now are VERY different things.
2. What IS clear in the bible is that it is wrong for us (followers of Jesus) to cause ANY doubt or challenge (stumbling block) to an unbeliever while excusing our actions on the basis of ambiguity or even worse, spiritual maturity. So in that sense our culture, and appropriately so, dictates people perception of alcohol use.
If my casual drink in a bar is seen by the same person who sees me as a leader in the church the following Sunday what message does that send. We need to avoid even the appearance of evil. I recently heard this and it seems to fit with this discussion. "we often judge others on their actions but ourselves on our intentions." Since that is the reality of our world we need our intentions to be loud and clear through our actions and not allow our "spiritual maturity" to get the better of us.
We are called to holiness, not the intention of holiness. To be clear, it can not be an arrogance filled 'Holier than thou' type of thing but a genuine heart-cry. Our holiness comes as a result of our passionate heart for God and HIS cause. Not the other way around.
Just my 2 cents
Be careful how you are using the phrase "stumbling block". It is used twice in the New Testament, Romans 14:13 and 1 Corinthians 1:22-24. In Romans, Paul is writing to not put stumbling blocks in the way of our "brother", not unbeliever. In 1 Corinthians, stumbling block is referenced to say that the Cross itself is a stumbling block to unbelievers. In neither case are we to abstain from doing something so that we will not be a stumbling block to an unbeliever.
ReplyDeleteAnd again, why is a casual drink evil? The Bible does not condemn drinking alcohol in anyway, only being controlled by alcohol. There is a monumental difference. In Acts 10:15, God tells Peter to not call anything that he has made clean. And considering that Jesus drank, Paul drank, great Church leaders drank, and non-American Christian cultures drink, I think that alcohol is clean if done in moderation.
As for the wine of the Bible and the wine of today: there are arguments on both sides. The fact is that Jesus did drink fermented alcohol enough to be accused of being a drunkard so clearly he was drinking at least some alcohol. And if drinking at all is evil as you imply, then Jesus was not sinless and could not die for our sins.
Dustin - If I were to guess, I'd guess that my background is every bit as conservative as yours. And I share your personal conviction about alcohol. Although I avoid alcohol completely (except for the occasional cough medicine...), and I encourage others to do the same, I think Gungor's perspective is more reflective of a proper Biblical understanding.
ReplyDeleteBut all of that aside... His article was about much more than alcohol. It was about hypocrisy among believers, how the rampant it is in the Christian music industry, and how being fake kills creativity. One does not need to know too many people who know people to know that this is true. With my own ears I heard one of Nashville's top session players pining for a "lucrative" (his words) worship tour, and that was 15 years ago.
I think the kind of honesty that Gungor is calling for requires that you and I take a fresh look at scripture. I have no intention of becoming a social drinker, and I do think abstinence from alcohol is wise. And I even agree with the stumbling block argument, and the idea that 1 drink is too many for some. But to make the argument for absolute abstinence from alcohol for all believers depends upon a modern understanding that was not part of Biblical culture or teaching. Let's at least acknowledge that.
(Pretty sure this will be my last post)
ReplyDeleteHere's where I see the breakdown occurring: if you are in favor of alcohol abstinence universally for Christians, you have a perfectly logical argument. In fact, my personal conviction is quite similar.
But that's the thing: a logical or even supernatural personal conviction does not supersede what the Bible says, or in this case, what it doesn't say. There is a logical argument to be made that responsible drinking is not a sin nor does it hinder a brother or nonbeliever. And without a clear Biblical stance on alcohol beyond simply not to be drunk (which many responsible Christians and non-Christians over the centuries have effectively done by the way), we should and I believe must defer to Romans 14, especially verse 14:
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.
Let that be your personal conviction, not universal truth. And for those that choose to drink alcohol, do not do it in the company of those who you know has difficulty handling it or even flaunt it through talk.
I end with this: the same power that conquered the grave lives in me. That same power has the ability to master alcohol as well. Let us not live in fear of alcohol but dedicate it to the glory of God, whether that means moderation or abstinence.